# Office Hours N°268

Good evening. All

good morning. Good morning.

Hello.

All right.

Another week, another office hours,

the number, uh, 250, something like that. Sorry, what was that? I said the number 250 for you, uh, of office hours. I think we're at two 200. I think it's 268, no doubt. Bad. It's nuts. Yes, sir. Oh, boy.

Um, but maybe the. The sixth with the, with this new format. I'm still count, I'm gonna still count up from zero though. 268. What kind of, what kind of change did you bring, would you say? New format? What was it before? Before it was, it was, um, more like, uh, hanging out and talking about, you know, what happened during the week or what people were thinking about it.

It was basically no structure. Ah, okay. Show up, hang out. It's just the meeting. Yeah. And a drink after work. Like, uh, well, Mateo would sit there with his cigar out, out, back. Yeah. It's just a hangout. People sharing a links. It's sort of a live version of what's happening on the discord. Yeah. That's nice.

That's a good way of putting it. Um, but then, so then we changed the structure to, um. Side projects, so people sharing what they're, they're working on. And I think it's working out pretty well because some of the, I never got like extensive feedback. Not, not that I really asked for it, but sometimes some people would be like, hi, so what do you do?

And I'd be like, we hang out and talk. And it was just like so bewildering to people. Uh,

imagine you're sitting at the, at a, at a pub and you're just kind of hanging out with friends in the corner and you're talking for three hours and they're like, yeah. But on Zoom it is still confusing. Yeah. With no purpose of something behind it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what's the, are there meeting notes? It's like, sorry, action items, any action items?

Like what, then you realize like how Zoom people used a particular thing for, for Zoom, but um, yeah, so that's, that's been the, uh, the evolution. Um, but so we've got, we've got three side project presentations this week. And, uh, let's see.

We've got, um, Mateusz. Gusav or Gusav? Gusav. Gustav. Gustav. Gustav French. Okay. Yeah. It's French name. Yeah. Very French. Um, and, uh, and Stan. Yeah. Okay, cool. Great. Everyone's here. This is awesome. It's gonna work out. Um, so yeah, I think we should just get, get right into it. What do you guys think in the side projects?

So, in, in order of who submitted, uh, we start with Matteas. Yay. Okay. Let's see. Do I already have share permission? Okay, good.

So 10 minutes. Do 20 minute discussion. Let's see.

There we go. Should now see my keynote. Right?

Lovely. Okay. Thank you very much for this opportunity. I, I'm very happy to present for the first time in this new format. So it's, uh, it's a small project I've been doing, uh, doodling on for a bit. Forms, forms of ai. I'll get to get to what it's about in a second. Whoops. There we go. Okay. So first off, of course, content.

Notice all generative AI models are based on stolen works, uh, of actual creators, as well as relied on extracting labor, labor from undervalued ghost workers. And the author of this presentation that is me, acknowledges the unethical state of affairs, but I hope that the work merits a useful discussion nonetheless.

So that's just the disclaimer, of course, obligatory. Um, so I'm, um, did this, uh, thing where I'm most curious how generative AI reflects the design of, uh, human bureaucracies, bureaucracies being any, any way we. Uh, all the paper trails that we leave, sorry. When we, uh, interact with an organization, a government, uh, applying for jobs, whatever.

So about two years ago I used Midjourney, I think it was Midjourney three. So I generated some three, 700 different designs. Uh, you can see some examples throughout the presentation. It's well on the right, and the prompts were usually along the lines of like, uh, you know, bureaucratic, uh, seventies housing contract and Soviet block, uh, job application for under people, not well, those kind of things.

Anyway, and I just collected these and I didn't really know what to do with them. So they've been lying in the, lying on the drive for two years and I figured I should do something about it. Um, my original, uh, intent with this rather the, what, what started me off with this was, um, me as a, like I have an art background and then I've moved into UX and UX design.

And it's always been this, this notion that there are best practices for how to do things. For example, I mean, the grid system, uh, the Swiss grid system is still very much, uh, big. So we try to streamline, uh, how we design things, and I never really, I never liked it when it's something is too prescriptive, right?

So this, the grid system allows you to like, uh, have a very clear information, architecture, create clear, uh, hierarchy of, uh, content and so on. But whenever you, whenever you use a system, when it, when it becomes so frictionless, it hides the assumptions that you make of your user, right? And we see this in, um, well in bureaucratic forms, right?

So depending on how a form is structured, if you apply for housing or benefits or job, whatever, you always have these assumptions about, okay, what is important for the people who is, has, uh, created this form or this, uh, interactive. Paper tool or a web tool, whatever. So I'm curious sort of like, what are the things that are hidden, uh, when we, when the design becomes so invisible, because we, our only goal is to do something, uh, frictionless, right?

Then going back even before, um, the Swiss, we have the ornament as a crime. Uh, the ar laws present, um, argument that we should strip everything away. His, the, this quote is mu has very much to do with his time and the architecture that preceded it, which is very ornamental, but we still have this assumption that form follows function.

And by by saying this, we, we sort of relegate form to something. Hmm. We, we, we ignore the form, I think beyond the, just the aesthetics. So today, for example, we have design systems, right? So if you're a Uxr or UI person, I'm sure you have, uh, played around with the, uh, design systems, for example, that we have, like material design or Apple.

So each company has their own. And we do this to minimize friction while, you know, while, while still keeping the branding and the information architecture and comply with accessibility requirements and so on. But this also mean that the design, both web design, app design, but also on paper, it's, it's, the only thing that's left is ornamentation.

We don't think, or, sorry, I shouldn't generalize. It's easier to ignore the possibility of design, to think about how to conceptualize a problem or a solution and more, more becomes, uh. About meeting KPIs or particular goals or streamline stuff? Again, like form follows function. Just, just do the button bigger.

Right. So, um, I'm trying to think about how I can use these, um, forms, which, I mean, I, and, and I'm a paper geek. I, I really enjoy forms, but I went to Japan recently. I was buying, like, printed out checkbooks even though I don't read Japanese because I just liked how, how it's, how they look. I, I 'cause it, I, it feels like, it tells me something about the, the culture, the material culture of a new society that I don't know much about.

So I had these 700 different images and, and I came up with this. So it's a, we can use these as templates or cues for forcing a designer to use them as, uh, the baseline for new design. So I'll, I'll show you an example of what I mean here. Um. By using these generated, uh, forms or layouts, we can force a designer to say, okay, pretend that the graph you see on your right, that's your, that's the homepage of Twitter.

And now we have to come up with why, in, why would the homepage of Twitter look like this? Or why would your, uh, prescription paper from your doctor look like this? Now you have to solve it. And it might, by forcing a designer to think about, you have to assume that this is sort of the design system that you have to solve for.

Um, why would this design system look the way it does? Right? So I'm not saying that thi this will open up great, fantastic ideas to new aesthetics or new designs, but it forces you as a designer to reconsider what your users and what you are ta take for granted in the, when you're designing stuff. And it might actually open up new ideas about.

How to think about the problem. What is the most important thing when you're applying for a job? What is the most important thing when you are applying for care for your pet, whatever. So I have a couple of, it's just some of these are more abstract than others, of course. Uh, and because this is mid journey three, all the, uh, lettering is goodly good.

Uh, you can't really make anything out, which is, you know, fits my purposes quite well.

So what I did here, I took some of these and I changed them to one color and I printed them on the Risograph. Uh, for those of you who don't know Risograph, they basically look like, uh, office copiers, but they only, they, it's a cold print, print technique, uh, which only prints one color at a time. Most of the machines only print one color at a time.

Um, and. As opposed to laser printers, you can actually draw on these. So, so this is ink that soaks into the paper, so you don't get that annoying function of laser printing where you can't really draw on it. And then I, I printed a bunch of these and I like, uh, notebook glued them together just to make them into tariff sheets.

So the idea being that I could have a stack of 50 different, each stack has 50 different, um, forms generated, and they're bound together just by glue. You turn it off, you use it for sketching, and that's it. I really like the ephemeral thing on paper. I mean, the prints are crappy. The, the AI generated images are crappy, but maybe if you use them within a particular.

Rule or, or game set up, you could actually have this, uh, might actually generate something interesting, right? So for example, one suggested workshop would be get 10 designers or whatever together, and everyone gets a, a block of these and cues for what they should do, right? So this might be use the form on the right to create the thread main page or a car lease contract or a discharge medical form.

Why would discharge medical form look the way it does, right? And you do the whole workshop, you thing. So people get to withdraw on these, uh, and play around. And the other thing is, of course you need to have a presentation. So everyone has to pick one or two of the, um. So designs that I have created and presented as if it's a pitch for a stakeholder.

Right. So, no, I actually do believe that our receipts from the store should look like this skull on the right, right. Or the head on the right. And these are my designy reasons for doing it that way. So these last two things, this is, this is how I want to use it just to see what people make of it. Um, but, um, and I have a bunch of different thoughts and ideas, but I'm, I'm curious if this vibes with any of you and if you have any comments, I'd love to hear them.

And that was it coming in at nine minutes, I think.

Awesome. Yeah, right on time.

I think in the form of other projects I've seen the value of, um, the mass production value of, in terms of design that AI allows us. So, you know, I I just, just as a general idea, the sense that I could just kind of say to it, so to speak, create 50 designs with a lot of white space, but make them cool and just put them together and use that as, as writing paper or idea paper.

Just kind of a, a random idea generator almost. Um, as a background to draw on. I, I just like that idea. Just in general. Um, the, the, the manufacturing of design, um, mass man, mass production of design, um, that seems interesting to me. So I'm curious if you took these designs and you, were you actually able to feed them back to the AI and said, tell me what these are good for displaying information about?

Uh, I haven't tried that. Um, and I think the, I mean, I'm coming down on the side of, I, I guess I'm not that interested in, in, in that particular, I, I'm more interested in how can we, I mean, if, if now AI is here to stay, I'm curious, what does that allow us to do as grow as humans, right? So, um, I'd rather see it as a tool for experimenting and then like your own creativity rather than just as a play thing where you riff and vibe with the, with an ai.

So, short answer is, I haven't tried it. Um, who, who would you see this as a potential, um, tool for? Would this be like. Uh, teams within an organization that are thinking about, like, publishing information in the best way or, or what are we, what are you thinking? I think, uh, I'm thinking like the fir first thing.

I just wanna see what, what do other de design the people who do like UI design or information architecture or service design, how would they, would this be beneficial for forcing them to rethink some aspect of what they're doing? So it's basically a, a like a creative, creative toy, I guess. Um, but it could be, it could, some of these could be used for, um, I imagine that might, they might be use useful for generating new ideas for, okay, how do we approach, we have a design problem, so we want, we need to do, we need to distinguish ourselves somehow, uh, in the marketplace.

So what can we do, which is really weird and wacko, while still being accessible to people with like, screen readers. Okay, so how would, how do we do it? For me, I'm, I'm very much a workshop type of person, so I, I thought this was mostly workshop play thing, I think, if that makes sense, Scott?

Yeah. I can see two very different uses. One is just helping newer designers read design, so obviously there's the prompt you use to generate them, and there's lots of, let's say they, you know, there's things working and then things not working, so you're guessing at intentionality, blah, blah, blah. But that's a useful skill to like, to learn what is legible, blah, blah, blah, for new designers.

The other thing, when you were talking about the game. I was thinking of the equivalent in cartography where, you know, if you just ask people to, um, uh, obey the lines of the map as drawn, you're then limited to the mindset of the existing cartography. So in my, um, comment on the game part would be, you know, use the principles of the whatever sheet that you've pulled off to then make a thing versus literally draw on it.

I wouldn't, as, as a participant, I would immediately wanna break what you've, versus coloring it in, so to speak. I mean, there's, I guess, a level of coloring it in, which might be interesting too, but it seems more like, take whatever principles you see here, accidental or not, and then make a thing from those That would be a very.

Useful exercise. I could see that. And fun. Yeah. I, I like the map map, the, the map and analogy. I hadn't thought about it, but that's really great. Um, and I think what this was, this was, these prints are just semi, I pulled off basically for this presentation. So, and to get, get it outta my head onto paper. Um, but I imagine, as you say, I should, some of the things I should take out, right?

So edit out some of the text or out some of the more specific, because otherwise people are gonna get stuck on the trying to interpret what they're seeing too much. I think so. Well it's like, it's like any kind of. It could be from any other. If you, uh, look at a, if you don't know Japanese and you're looking at Japanese graphic design, you can still make guesses about hierarchy, placement, layout, blah, blah, blah.

You could still do that. So even though it's kind, gibberish, the language, it's still open to understanding the system of it. If anything, I would push these to be more different. They're still more or less within the same family of the ones you've shown me, um, or shown so far. Yeah.

I think, uh, Stan is neck.

Um, what I was thinking of is, uh, actually while, while you guys are talking, um, I just sort of thought like, wow, this would be a, a great idea for a, an adult coloring book or something like that. I'm just joking though. Um, uh, so I immediately, as soon as you, you, you shared with, with us, um, as an instructional designer, I thought, wow, like, um, these would be great to use for ideas to, to create job aids and, and, and visual guides.

Um, and just a fair bit of, um, informational architecture that goes into creating, um, a really good job aid or a really good, uh, visual reference guide or anything like that. Um, and, and so I thought this could be, um, really good for an inspiration when, when designing, uh, a portfolio piece, but also perhaps for when.

We're dealing with, say, a very technical type of training that requires the knowledge of like, these forms and, and what, what needs to go where. And uh, the one thing that I, the one type of, um, training that I, that I've, that I've worked on in the past is, um, for instance, how to do a, a waste walk. Uh, which is, um, something where you, you go around a, a site, um, it could be a construction site, and you look for different types of wastes.

There's like eight different types of waste and you have to fill out a form, um, on, on that. So like a visual form like this would be, would be great to have as a, as part of the training. Um, now what that form looks like, that's a whole different story. I'm not quite sure. So these could be a great inspiration for something like that.

Hmm. Yeah, thanks. I, I think I've had this also in my back of my mind because of two things, right? We bought one of these really tiny jacuzzi blowup pools, and the instructional manual was complete garbage because it tried to apply like the same solution for 20 different models and we couldn't find correct buttons and whatever.

And so that, and also I'm starting up an, A company, right? And so I'm have a lot of back and forth with the, um, the IRS here in Sweden, uh, to register properly. And, and, and I don't get it. I, I don't think I'm a stupid person, but it makes me feel so stupid and I really hate with like, when the information systems make you feel like such a, like a dunum and like, so, so this idea of, okay, how, if this is how, if, if, if these forms is how it would look to register a company would make no difference to me because they, they're just as unintelligible as, as what I'm actually doing more or less.

Mm. Um. So I like the, so, so suddenly when I started thinking about this, I, I really see it all, all around me. So it's really interesting to hear about the, like, the, well, the information architecture and instruction perspective of this. And I think the coloring book is a good idea. I mean, if you read in the office and you go like, yeah, I hate my meetings.

Uh, and you go like, yeah, okay, let's color in how this, how this meeting maps onto this stupid layout,

uh, Sandra. Oh, um, yeah, I, I, I keep, I, I love the randomness as I mentioned, and I'm thinking of like tea leaves or, um, like tallest, like when they, you throw the sticks. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, the ing. Yeah. And, and, and how sometimes what you create is, is beautiful, right? Like they're beautiful shapes. Um, must be something about the mysticism there.

And, uh, and then I think of like, like the, you know, like the DTI guys, like, uh, like Mondrian, uh, Malevich, uh, uh, who else isn't like, anyway, the, the, anyway, just general geometric art that's balanced in the Swiss style, right? Not necessarily the Swiss style, but like something that is, is, is considered.

That's the kind of stuff you could train a model on very easily, right? You could just literally give it a bunch of photos of art and style guides and so on and ask it to make something. Um. Balanced and attractive. I don't know what the prompt would be. You could play around, uh, and it would create beautiful things, right?

And it would create them on in bulk. Uh, and, you know, you could rig this up with a printer and have this all automated and just kind of keep giving yourself ideas. So I think of like this idea of, maybe this is a way, maybe I'm off topic, but where people can get, have a ritualized interaction with random design, right?

And so they, they learn to engage with forms they, they certainly have never seen before. And, and those might be more interesting to look at than a white piece of paper or the gray walls around them, right? Just like a cheap way to get people seeing new design that would probably be mostly beautiful, right?

I think that's kind of, uh, and you know, it costs a dollar at the, you know, the dollar store, right. That, that would be great. Uh, yeah, that's what I'm, I'm seeing in this. Yeah. And I think it makes sense and I think the, uh, this is just. This is half the thing because there's, it's, there's no problem generating these kind of things, as you say, as as much as you can humanly want, uh, in like 10 minutes.

Uh, the other point is how you frame the, like, the exercise, whether you do like a workshop as I'm proposing, or, uh, like the, you know, you have an itching daily horoscope based on these or whatever. It's, it's like the way you frame it in, in order to make it meaningful for you, whether it's, uh, as a, as a design practitioner or as a person just trying something out or calming yourself, whatever.

I think that's like the rules and, and the ideas surrounding this that's, I imagine is the most. Uh, or at at least as important as, as whatever artifacts. I mean, this sh this shocks, shocks you in thought like, what the hell is this? Like someone shows me this, and for some reason I decide to spend mental energy, like considering it, right.

I'm gonna be like, what the, and then I'm gonna start seeing things. I see things like every time I look at it, right, the right one sort of looks like some kind of report of, and like something sanctuary. What's like ter ternel? Is that a new kind of fuel? Like, like, you know what I mean? Like as a, as a pro, as a provocation, right.

Um, I think it's great and, uh, you know, I could probably, if I focused, maybe come up with something half interesting that has nothing to do with obviously design, which means nothing, which is sort of the point. But, uh, I, I would, it's, it's almost like a, a visual version of Eno's, uh, kind of inspiration cards or whatever they're called.

Right. Um, yeah. Anyway, um, I, I, I really like it, you know, I like the feeling you're giving me. This is very, it's, it's very pleasant presentation because of this. Thank you very much, uh, drew. Yeah, thanks. Uh, I guess when I look at it and thinking about, uh, a workshop like you described, uh, my mind goes to deconstruction and, uh, gamifying it.

So like if, if it were my exercise, I would probably cut them up and break them up into cards so that they were components, modular components instead of like whole cloth. Like the, the whole thing is, uh, um, it's a bit, it's hard for me to access it, but if they, but I think the, the components in 'em are very useful.

And then maybe the, the workshop is design a form for X in your, in your enterprise or for your, for your company. And then you have these design components that are very abstract. Right. So you've got the, the dots and, you know, filled in dots and you've got like the bar charts with the, uh, with the arrows.

And then it would be on the participants to take these more abstract components and put them together and then explain what the components are of the form. Yeah, and I think that like the getting people in the, in the mind, in the mindset of like telling a story about this, uh, is, must be the, like, one of the best outcomes.

Because once you, if you can tell a compelling story, then, then you can start to question it, then values and, okay, what are we really telling, what are we emitting and all that. So I, I really like the, like how to practically use these to, uh, to make it more accessible. I'm, I'm. All up for like, you know, if, whether it's cut up or, or forcing rules or like making it more of the prescriptive, uh, game out, out of it or whatever.

I think that's great. I think I, I had as a reference by the way here, uh, if it, I'm not, I've realized not, not everyone knows about it, PowerPoint Karaoke, uh, if you haven't heard about it, it's a fantastic game. I've hosted it twice. It's basically you download a PowerPoint presentation, like random online and you randomly get to select it and then without see previewing it beforehand, you need to talk in front of an audience.

Pres do the presentation. And it's like, some people really joke, uh, but some people are so convincing and so good when, you know, you have a, you know, kitty football league report on new membership drives and you have to do a presentation as if to, to like for your real stakeholders and you have to take questions from the audience.

It's fantastic, but it requires. People making a real effort to buy into this and, and presenting it then. And I think the, like, uh, going back to these, if you can present these and actually have to convince people and tell a story, that discussion that it spawns usually are really fulfilling and interesting that PowerPoint karaoke is pretty much my whole career.

So, yeah. So just to keep things, uh, it's like every, everyone's career. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. I just wanna say just to keep things tight so we have, um, time for other other talks. Um, so why don't we do so I think Benjamin's only one who hasn't had a chance to, I mean, thanks through opportunity. Uh, I wasn't planning on talking today, I was just gonna watch, but I actually found it really inspiring.

Um, I'm a product manager, so like, uh, not the designer myself. And I remember the first time I was introduced to a grid system by my designer and my mind was blown. Um, and I just wanted to say. This does a really good job of, you know, really coming down to like, what is the role of a designer in a team. I think in a world where AI can create that, you know, design guide, style guide, and there are all these standards and you know, you're measured by your KPIs and, you know, introducing friction has always been something that is important, but is, uh, challenging to get the upper levels to sign off on.

I think that in a world where you can get to that frictionless state so quickly, um, a designer that can go above and beyond that and introduce a like novel approach that doesn't, you know, decrease conversion, hurt the business and actually increase the business is like, uh, what good designers are gonna be able to do.

So I just wanna say like, good job, like the, the core of like the problem you're tackling is like, awesome and thanks for. Yeah. Thank you very much. I mean, it remains to be seen whether this is better like a conscious designer. Is that better than really fast ab testing, right? For business, uh, goals? It might not be, but the in the end, we need to have, we need to have, in Swedish, there's a saying, right?

You, you're not having more fun that you're make creating yourself, right? So you need to have, you need to enjoy your life somehow. And I think like intellectually stimulating yourself, uh, with these kind of exercises and games, I think it's, uh, it's, it's make life more, life more fun. And potentially it might actually be beneficial in some way as well.

So why not both? You gotta have something to test yourself. Oh, totally, totally. I mean, but as I said, it remains to be seen, right? Because it's so easy to be, um, my, my, in my previous, uh, previous career was as a photographer, right? But photography is more and more becomes a. If you say that you have a staff photographer, it's mostly about you want to be, it becomes a brand.

We actually pay someone to take pictures, even though we could buy stock pictures for like one 10th of the price, but it becomes a, a way to, well, well brand yourself. So, and the same, same thing might happen with designers most likely because now you can just transition from Figma into what functioning design, not perfectly, but you know, sooner or later.

And you can ab test it and automatically do it. So what's the point of having a designer at all? Right. So, uh, it's also me for just trying to motivate my own professional existence, especially now when I'm trying to strike it out on my own. So, and um, you know, you have to have fun. I mean, otherwise life's too boring.

Sage words from, thank you. Um, Sandra, if it's okay, we'll, we'll, uh, we'll push onto the next presentation. Maybe you can. If thank you for, thank you for all the comments and the, thank you. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't even realize it. You gotta lower your hand. Of course. Sorry about that.

Um, yes. So, yeah, that was great. Okay. Uh,

um, I guess my, my only closing thought would be that, um, I really like the inversion, so going the other way, um, starting with, starting with the visual, the system and then asking people to try to make sense of it. Uh, going backwards is, that's definitely's definitely my vibe. Puzzle game where this, what world did this come from?

Cool. Um, okay. I think, um, Gustav is next. Yeah. So yeah, I'm going to share my screen. Uh.

Okay. Do you see everything?

Yeah. Do you see my screen? Yeah. Uh, so, uh, so it's an exploration. I'm gonna bring you in. It's a, a bit of a journey. So I'm a, I'm a designer. I've studied like architecture design, but more interior architecture. And I've graduated like, uh, four years ago. And I, my diploma was about, uh, I really asked my question of the use of designers.

It's a bit like, mate, it was like the role of designers in this, uh, in this, uh, era, this challenging time. And I asked myself, uh, what if, uh, uh, designer were very able to shape the world we are going to live, uh, after? So I, I went on an exploration asking myself, let's imagine a world where, uh, you know, we, we have, uh, merged technologies and we have, uh, merged, uh, our lifestyle with nature.

We merged, not harmonious one, but let's say we have a harmonious, let's say we have a merger, lifestyle, technology, et cetera. How will it look like? So the first part is I created a world, large world where, you know, uh, and a, a long story of the world, like, uh, from the first stage, the fifth age. So it's a, a long story starting from a, a place where, uh, you know, it's tribes, they live in, uh, harmony with nature.

They have, you know, their own rights, their own life going and, uh, you know, I do. So I'm going to quickly do this. It's working. You know, they, they have created like a, uh, a really deep connection with nature and what's around them. And so they build architecture and they build design according to this feeling.

And according to this, uh, you know, this, uh, trust they have built, you know. Like, uh, the, the ships, everything needs, uh, and, uh, all the, the behavior needs to be respect of nature, et cetera, et cetera. So it, they evolve, but then nature gets annoying, uh, uh, gets unpredictable. So they start to want to control more.

And then the object, that shape of, uh, you know, the need of control, like more and more. So it's age two, you know, uh, they, they start to need comfort. They start to, to know, uh, be less and less, uh, in need of, uh, um, uh, you know, connection. But they're like, okay, we need protection. And then they create the, the civilization, you know, with, uh, the need of, uh, more and more control, uh, extractivism.

And, uh, like in my fantasy, I said, okay, they create tools, they create machines that the only role is to extract. So that's the shape design text, you know. An architecture, it's like, okay, it's mean, and it's the shape of it. It's okay, it's, it's used, it's destruction, extraction, war, it's general. But you know, it was my exploration, you know, war like protection, um, uh, submarines, et cetera, et cetera.

And then they have a moment where, you know, it's kind of the era we're living. It's, uh, but, uh, a bit fantasy one, it's like a, a object that take the shape of, uh, controlling tools, uh, uh, more and more extractivism, uh, uh, defending themselves against opponents. So they are, they take like the shapes of robots that, uh, you know, uh, uh, try to control the, the, the borders.

Uh, trying to be like a more and more, uh, uh, you know, in the, in the organization of the city, the, the verse of advertising as well. And then there is a moment, and that's the, the moment when I, I kind of switch in my head. And, uh, it is the other part of the, the, the project. So I'm, I'm kind of doing fast for this.

Uh, uh, there is a catechism, like I would say, like COVID and uh, uh, fraud, like, um, from extracting the, extracting the kind of eat a Porsche of gas. And this gas corrupts everything in the city. And, um, and, you know, uh, they, they have to, uh, make, uh, um, a harmonious connection with nature. They have to do it, it's like, uh, uh, life or death for them.

So they invent objects and they invent, uh, you know, uh, architecture. They need to blend with the sickle of lives. So the thing I've tried to do, like it, it was, uh, like, oh, would these objects look like. Or would this interaction with nature will, like, what would be the behavior, what would be the lifestyles?

And further I was going into that, uh, world. I was kind of obsessed. 'cause I thought there was like a, a missing point of like, okay, what if we blended with it creatively? It's so interesting to say. Okay. The, the only thing is like, everything starts from the ecosystem and then, you know, you can go more and more up.

It's like if the ecosystem has to be harmonious, the, the, uh, the objects, the civilization could be interesting. It's so interesting to build, you know, to craft, like what would be the lifestyle? Would it be sanitarian, would the seal with the wars, et cetera. So it was like four years ago, and I, I've done lots of other things.

I work as a designer now. There's a project, I don't know if you've seen it. I was always very interested about the fact of getting something out of it. Like, what can I do from this world? Can I do a, like a, I don't know, a show? 'cause I wanted to show the world. So I've kind of, I went with this idea, uh, which is a, a lie, I still alive.

It's a show I would like to do, uh, in a way. So I'm very open to what you think and I hope it's not too overwhelming. So it's, uh, it's a story of, uh, you know, she's the impress of Cales. Cales is the city I built, you know, she is the city, a bit like representing industry. And, um, she's, uh, uh, she comes from a very venerable bloodline and she's destined to be like a, um, the impress of this kingdom.

But one day she's hunting with her father and she fall into like a trap, like, uh, Alice in the Wonderland. And she discovers that this world. And this world, uh, it's, it was kind of a tale and, uh, uh, like legend and, uh, a place that people never heard about, uh, heard, but only in stories. And, uh, in this place, humans, uh, they have blended lifestyles.

Cities object, spiritual beliefs, deeply connected with the sickles of life. Uh, they have created complex relationship with life using technology. And, uh, you know, they, they, they, they start from, each of them start from the ecosystem. They are living it. Uh, there is a, um, a writer in France. It's called bat, we call it the mil.

It's like the, the environmental sphere with its logic, the, the wind, the, the temperature, the, the, the, the living of the life. They're connected to it. So they live with the moments of thrive, and they live with the moments of decay and they blend architecture, lifestyle, everything with this. And so it creates like a, uh, very, uh, unique and um, um, ancient civilization that have always evolved with this, uh, need of like, we need harmony.

We need like, uh, accept this. Of course there is like death, of course there is like a war, of course. But there's this need of like, okay, we need to, to maintain this, and this is us, this is our indemnity. So she goes through this world and it's like, uh, uh, travel of the hero she likes. Uh, she, she meets all the different people, all uh, different people from each civilization.

Uh, uh, she gets new friends from there and she evolves as a, as a person. She, you know, she, she went to all these places.

I have to turn them. Okay. And, uh, she discovered why there is a, a disconnection, why she arrived in this world, why there is a such a disconnection with the world she lives in, which is very, uh, pragmatic control world. Uh, very 2D and, uh, the world she lives in, which is very rich, very, uh, uh, uh, dangerous as well, but very rich.

And one day, you know, as, uh, the time passed, uh, the, the in the realm, uh, there is a, uh, she's already genuinely strong. Uh, she's declared dead. People think she's dead, uh, et cetera. But the rumors spread that she's alive, that she's still alive, and that she's going to come back to kick their ass because of the, the father, her father has been imprisoned 'cause he has no air.

So she comes back with all of the French she made, uh, from the different civilization into this world. And she, the goal is that she destroys, uh, the, the, the city she was from, and she saves her father from there in a great war. Um, a very huge fan of lot of during. So it's a bit of a dream as well, you know, and, uh, yeah, uh, uh, sorry for listening.

All of this, the, the reason, uh, for the show is very, like a, a passion I have, uh, and a side project almost of a dream. Um, I have to, to make this, uh, this show, and I really would like to make it and to craft it, uh, with, uh, designers, historians, uh, uh, anthropologists, people from different backgrounds to bring like truth in the different civilization, and of course, ISTs.

And, uh, yeah. Paula, thank you for listening. Uh, and I, yeah, hope, uh, it's interested you. Thank you for, thank you for sharing. Um, super rich that'll work there. Um, maybe before, before Sandra goes, just very quickly, could you say what kind of, you know, what kind of, is there any particular kind of feedback that you are, that you would appreciate or just you find for open discussion?

Uh, yeah, open discussion. Uh, anything you would like to, to say. Uh, it's kind of a, I've been working on it for a long time and, uh, as you can see, it's very, uh, dearing for me. And I, I kind of start to build around it and wanted to, you know, to say, okay, I'm, if it's my life, I, let's make it fun as well. Like, uh, Matthew said, and, uh, yeah, let's, let's go for it.

And, uh, I'm, I don't know how to do it at first, but I'm very open to discussion. Uh, you know, it can be like a even small thing. Uh, I could grab the information from, it could be interesting. Sure. Okay. Maybe I'll just, I'll just preempt Sandra, just, um, just with a brief remark, because the first section that you shared my mind kept going to, um, I, you know, I would love to see like the, it as a, um, as a, as a, as almost like a, a historical reflection is, is where my mind went.

Um, like as if it were done not, 'cause initially you could look at, it's like, oh, this could be a graphic novel, let's say, for example, I'm not saying necessarily, but just imagining it as if this was a, um, a, a a, a history book for a, a school student explaining how they got to where, you know, what, what, what the past was like.

Yeah. That's just my quick, quick remark. Um, but Sandra, go ahead. First, I wanna say how beautiful that was. And, uh, you, the work shows and it's, um, you know, I, I can say this quite honestly, you may not believe me, but I was engaged so I could almost start the, the story was almost playing in my head a little bit.

Hmm. Um, and so that, that richness, my first thought was, I, I think you should talk to video game designers and, uh, maybe even video, video game studio. This, this would be a, a, a sweeping, speculative, epic like foundation or something. Like it's, uh, extraordinary. I know that's not what you're going for, but, but, uh, that's the first thing that jumped out at me.

But I'm on nerd. Um, this would be a great, this will be a great game. And, and the, and the other thing that, the kind of sub thing that got me was when you were talking about integrating nature with the architecture, right? Like, you know, all great games like that are where you're building a base, right. And that's the whole thing.

Mm. Like you try to get a big base, uh, but that's all about power and how many guns you have. You know, it is like traditional metrics or gameplay. But if you made something that was most like you, you somehow, and this is game design, which I'm not good at, but like, you know, you're somehow gain, gaining, winning by being more in tune with what's around you to make the, the cheapest use of resources, even if you wanna look, I guess mathematical or something like that.

And it made me think of Tallon West, Frank Lloyd Wright's place, which I was kind of a pilgrimage I did. And, um, the, they, they didn't have a lot of money and, and, and so they built this, this really beautiful building and well structure kind of compound, but they only used the stuff that was around. So they, they used the local like stones and, and sand and everything.

And they didn't even have windows because, you know, those didn't exist, right? They had like these, these canvases, which didn't work. And eventually people like broke down their interest. They made an exception in their artistic vision for Windows. But like, um. The, the whole idea and, and the stones around there had, uh, ruins from, uh, uh, native American past, like it's historical.

Um, and it's, and it's in Arizona, so it's like, it's rock and, and, and, and stone and, and, and just vast blue skies. And it's, it's just a wonderful place to kind of build a sandcastle. Uh, and it made me think of this, well, this made me think of that. So, and that was a very, another very, another very pleasant presentation made me think of a, a wonderful nostalgia.

Um, but this is a, uh, your, your story is, uh, I don't know. It, it's, I'm engaged already. I, I, the work has paid off. If I can say that without sounding painful. No, thank you very much. Fan. Fantastic. Yeah, I, I found that's very interesting what you say about the, the fact of making a video game when you, you know, you have to make everything, uh, you know, um, harmonious or as you said, like it has to be maintained in Armen state.

It's very interesting 'cause. It's, yeah, it's what, in what interests me? It's, it's like, for me, it's something that doesn't exist or maybe I don't see it, but, but the ny with nature, the technology with it, this care doesn't really exist. And the, the, what you say for me, it follows that, uh, that, uh, feeling I have like building something that, uh, it, it flows naturally.

Uh, I think your idea, I think it's very interesting.

Yeah. Beautiful work. Thank you very much for this, drew. You're up. Thanks. Yeah. So yeah, gorgeous, obviously great, great world building and it shows how much time you've put into it. Uh, the first thing I think of, and this is just 'cause I'm immersing myself in this space right now, is, uh, an RPGA role playing game.

Uh, I've been. Delving into solo RPGs. Uh, there's a number of, uh, mm-hmm. There, there's all kinds, there's a huge variety of systems, right? There's like the loaner system, and DFI is a, is a new one that came out. And then dead space is, is another loaner system. And they've all got like, interesting, unique mechanics.

Um, I first present that because, you know, if you design some mechanics around it, it would help you immerse yourself even further into this space, right? Mm-hmm. Because you could make your own characters in whatever age. And I love, uh, I love, um. Julian's idea of it being like a, a history book, right?

Because you could, you could format the, uh, the solo RPG like a history book, right? And then, but then you would like co you would co-create the history by taking on characters of a historical nature within one of the ages, right? And then you, you know, just using very simple mechanics, um, you know, just like maybe some polyhedral dice or cards or some, or they even use things like, like qualitative mechanics, uh, called tags.

You could build your own character and then one, you would be able to go through your own world and be embodied in your own world in that way. And then you could continue to flesh it out. And then maybe even, uh, you know, probably not what you're after, but mo like monetize it, right? Like, 'cause these, the, yeah, the Rrp, the RPG world is just dying for things like this, right?

Yeah. It's, and it's just, it's a huge ecosystem and really accessible. But, or do you think, um. Because of course, it'll be amazing if, you know, if you can like, um, make it in a video game, but like, very simply, or do you think, or do you think you do it, you know? Yeah. Like, oh yeah, that's do like a, a Bible or, or as you said, like a piece of the game or what's your, what's the winning, uh, you know, what's the winning, uh, yeah.

Argument or, yeah. Format I'm thinking of is just like z like a zine format, right? And so you just have like the first one, it's very lightweight, very ephemeral, and you have like the, you know, the character creation and the mechanics in it. And then you intersperse all of this great stuff that you have and the great illustrations in there as the narrative that the character goes through.

So it's very, very accessible. You don't have to get a video game developer company or like spin it up and rep it or anything like that, right? It's just, it's, uh, and but from building that, then you've all already got an even better foundation to take it even further. Right? To, if you go into that, the virtual digital space.

Okay. Yeah. That, that codex absolutely MeToo. That's, uh, that's exactly what I thought of when I saw it. Mm. Um, but anyway, that's, that's my, uh, that's my contribution. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I, I thought about it, but there's always the say of like, okay, I think it could be interesting, but I'm always, like, for example, building a video game, uh, it's, it's so enormous budget, it's so complicated.

So many people involved, and I was never sure, like if there is people coming with ideas and say, okay, I've built this world, what do you think about it? Uh, it could work. People would be interested, you know? It's, it's always been my doubts about it, but, uh, yeah. Yeah. But if youre building your own RPG, then you can, then it's all you, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and you've already shown like you, that you can commit to a project and Yeah. And create something. It's almost like, you know, don't, maybe, maybe the point that Drew's making, which I, I, I think is. It's spot on. It's like, keep going, but maybe just go in this direction and the direction might, you know, also sort of do in, in fun ways, like, um, continue to evolve your kind of world building, refine it.

But now you've got a particular form, you know, container. So your container isn't gonna be a 16 by nine slide, it's gonna be a zine that, that maybe sort of evolves into, uh, part of the instruction set or the material that comes, you know, if it were a boxed RBG, it doesn't have to be, let's say it came in a box, it'd be like, oh wait, what's this?

Here's the whole zine. This is like the story. The lord, here's a newspaper that came from that world. And then, you know, you keep building and then all of a sudden it becomes, you start seeing your weight again. I mean, I think you would've to probably get into a little bit of the RPG universe at least understand like what the idioms are and what the structures are and how these things, people put these things together.

But sometimes I think there RPGs that are basically just like a single card of instruction. That's it.

Okay. Um, thank you Curtis. Yeah. Uh, great presentation. Uh, love to see it. It feels like two different parts, right? So it feels like the world building is like, that seems to be the main interest and like the, the story, the story is mostly how to apply all the work you put into the world building to present the world building.

So the story itself, you know, you could create a million different stories based on this. Mm, exactly. Um, like one of the, uh, my initial, the, the first deck you showed, my initial reference was also a game, and that was, uh, dwarf Fortress. I dunno if you've seen it, but Dwarf Fortress is fantastic. Um. Uh, game.

It's a, like, you're controlling a bunch of dwarfs who have to build a fortress and you're being attacked by things and so on. And so it's like a city resource management, city planning, blah, blah. But the thing you do is when you start the game, you initialize it by, by giving some conditions, and then you can see mm-hmm the game writing, the whole history of the place, which includes like geographical history of famous battles.

So you have like heroes of battles. These are people you'll never meet, but they form like the lure of the world in which you, uh, you work. So I thought, and that's just an automatic generator, but it still gives you a very deep understanding of, uh, the place you are. Mm. Uh, I thought that was great. I think the Codex Enos, I'm guessing you've seen it, but it's uh, also a great way to.

Presented. So that's, if you haven't seen it, you can, I mean, it's expensive. It helped by, but what you say, the code, the what? Codex, I don't know how to pronounce it, but I put the Wikipedia link in the chat. You can download it. I think you could download like PDFs of it and it's invented language and it's like an, yeah, it's a zo, like a zoologist travel journal from a place that doesn't exist.

Uh, and it's invented language, invented critters. Uh, it's, uh, it's fantastic work of art. Um, but, but that's also a different way to approach it, right? So that becomes a, in that case, it is a book that cost $150 you can buy, and that becomes an artifact from that whole world building thing. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't think that this, I don't think that the story you presented is necessarily the most, I mean, if you really, if you really set on making a movie, go for it.

I mean, but, but there's so much else you can do, like crew said, right. Games that was, I was like. I, I, I started doing it and I merged into it, into the passion of world building. I was like, wow, there's so many things that it's kind of overwhelming, you know? But, uh, for me it's uh, important to, to have, uh, uh, all the aspects are very interesting, but the emotional one, like feeling the world for me, seeing it, feeling it's very important to me.

So that's what I thought about, like a movie. But it can be a game. It can be anything but like movie or a show or even a pilot or I don't know what, but, uh, for me it was, this was the, the why I crafted a story. And the story is like, uh, uh, Joseph Cambell, uh, you know, I was very interested in it, so, you know, uh, travel of the hero.

So if, yeah, it's kind of originated from this, but you, you're right. Uh, about the, your assumptions and Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Um, so I, what it reminded me of first when you went through the, the history, uh, was, um, uh, a planet sauvage, um, which is a, a French Yeah. From I think the eighties or something like that. Mm. Um, and so like, that's what I thought of first. And then, but then you went into the story of this, of this empress, and I thought, this reminds me very much of like the Witcher, which is a, a video game Yeah.

Polish video game. Uh, or from a Polish studio. It has this lore to it and all this mystery and all these different artifacts and all that. And then I thought like Mateusz's, uh, uh, forms kind of, um, could be almost like the documents, the official documents of like perhaps this government apparatus from this world.

Kind of, yeah. For some reason I connected the dots there. I'm not sure if that was necessarily meant to happen, but I just sort of thought it was a nice way of a nice segue that we had, um, yeah, there's a thing of language. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Could you Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Language and all that. Um, and then I thought like, um, there was a zine mentioned, but it also, like, there's a lot of beautiful board games, uh, in the style of Ds and Dragons that, that have these kind of, um, maybe perhaps a condensed version that we could, we could play on a, was a board game and we could be the different factions that are in this, like the, the, this great war that happens and then we just kind of get the prehistory.

But then. There's so much you could do with the prehistory that it almost reminds me of the, um, the Hobbit series. Uh, 'cause you, you did mention that you're a, you're a fan of Lord the Rink, so Yeah, yeah. You know, the, all the world building that, that was done prior to that. So it, it's, it's really wonderful, like how, um, how earthly it is or how human it is, yet how out of this world it is what you've created.

Mm. So, yeah. Thank you. And I, and, and I, I even thought about, uh, a game, uh, like, uh, death Stranding, death stranding, and, uh, you know, if they would be like walking in this place when you have a, you know, you have a past and you have a, so it's very mixed in terms of, uh, simulation. And they'd be walking in it.

This, you'd be like describing some parts. Maybe you have to bring some, uh, you know, uh, uh, resources to a place, to another. So yeah, it's kind of, uh, yeah. Another good, uh, idea,

um, Benjamin, and then we'll, then we'll move on to Stan's, uh, side project share. Yeah. Um, I just wanted to really deep role building. Love that. Um, similar to Julian, my first reaction wasn't the game hilariously, but I was envisioning, uh, so I'm Canadian and so a lot of our museums focus on like our natural history and like the native population.

And I was envisioning like stepping into like a museum and being, walked through the history of this culture with real artifacts, you know, surrounding like music and art, written artifacts and you know, being brought through the progression, like a physical space, embodying the progress, the timeline progression, all that kind of stuff.

Um, and I thought that like the level of detail in the world building that you were doing, like, would lend itself to that kind of experience really, really well. Um, and I just, you know, it's very fascinating and, um, not to be the AI guy when I'm kind of in ai and like, I feel like this is the type of thing that generative AI specifically is like really good at potentially assisting in executing because it takes, you know, the natural laws of the world and then you apply your own opinion to it.

Yeah, yeah. To generate these artifacts. Like, rather than trying to create a thousand articles like you could use to do those things faster. Yeah. Um, and so might be a, a tactic to actually Mm. Some of those things. Um, and anyway, it was really cool. And then I did wanna just say, so I don't talk about this a lot, but I do have a background in gaming in eSports.

I worked at Riot Games in 2012. Uh, uh, I've played, uh, lots, lots of video games with, uh, I have, uh, three brothers. Yeah. So yeah, dungeon and Dragons and, uh, my brother, he does video game, uh, another one does video game. So we are kind of in that, uh, you know, we are very geek about this, so, well, feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn and, uh, you know, I, there one game designer that I know of that's, uh, into kind of like futuristic, you know, wellbeing of the world.

That that might be, you know, if I'll see if you had some, if you're interested, I can see if he, you know, if you wanna get to Yeah, I'd, I'd be glad to. Happy to try and make a connection for you. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. And yeah, very, uh, interesting. And I go quick 'cause you, you have a, another person afterwards, but very interesting to have like, uh, the parametrics of, uh, the natural world.

If, you know, you can build like, uh, like all the natural laws and uh, you can build your own laws that create the architecture like data from object, uh, and lifestyle. Very, very interesting. And uh, yeah, thank you very much all, uh, it's been very rich and uh, thank you for all your feedbacks. So stand at, take a bio break.

And Kara's just raised, uh, their hand. So why don't we, Kara, why don't you, what do you got? Okay, cool. I, I was waiting for you to raise your hand actually. Um, hi everyone. Um, so I, I left, uh, although, uh, comment in the, in the comment section, in the message section. I don't know if you read it, but, uh, I was asking if you are aware of ecosystem processes.

Um, I actually did my master's thesis on, um, ecosystem architecture, uh, very quickly, uh, uh, what it's about is like some, like scientists have studied the ecosystems and there are different, like they have a, a certain number of. Process processes that are the same across all ecosystems. And I was wondering if you could use these processes to actually build your world, because you talked a lot about it is really integrated with nature and I feel like you haven't yet, maybe, uh, maybe I'm mistaken, but you haven't yet explored what it means to be integrated, uh, with nature.

So you have general ecosystem, uh, processes and principles like, uh, someone talks about resourcefulness, which is, uh, using the minimum amount of energy to have the maximum impact or, uh, using the resources, the local resources, um, to perform the processes, uh, which are generally to sustain life and to reproduce life.

Um, so I, what I can do, if I can share you a link to my, uh, master's thesis and at the end you have the original PhD that inspired me, and you have kind of, um, you have a table with, um, different ways, uh, these processes can be implemented in architecture, but to me, architecture is linked to everything. So I I'm sure you'll find inspiration for Yeah.

All these aspects of, uh, the world you are, you are building. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think when you don't know this processes, it's hard to build something concrete, uh, beyond just saying, I want my architecture to be regenerative or, uh, I want my word to be, um, integrated with nature. So that's just what I wanted to share with you.

It, it's more about, uh, I'm not a biologist. I haven't done like PhD in, uh, in the way nature works. I've been just like following, uh, the way, uh, um, architects and designers have integrated it. And I think on my, uh, small knowledge, it's more about like, uh, blending in, uh, rhythm, like, uh, uh, birth decay, uh, like, uh, the, the work for example of ne Oxman or, uh, Julian Graves, you know, they integrate like, uh, this, the, the fact that it's a bit alive, I would say.

And, uh, yeah, of course it's, uh, mm-hmm. A bit, uh, embryonic. It's more like I, and, uh, sensitive work I do. And, uh, of course it's, uh, it's, and uh, it's, of course there is a, I'm not going to revolution and, uh, be completely accurate, but I try to, yeah, if you can bring me, uh, some, uh, some of your work, I'd be very interested, uh, to, to, yeah, be very interested.

If you can put it on the Yeah, I, yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thanks. Congrats for your work. No, thank you, Kurt. Um, cool. That was good stuff. Thank you for sharing that. And, um, so now we'll just move on to, to Stan.

Okay. So I will, uh, pretend that, uh, what I'm about to show you is more of a palette cleanser from all the visuals that we have seen, uh, because it is very sparse in terms of design. It's, I'd I'd say it's probably more about the, um, trying to brainstorm the ideas. Um, so please let me know if you can see my screen.

Uh, okay, great. Um, so. I had this idea when I was working at, uh, uh, at a, uh, a, a place that, uh, it's a basically a power generator. Uh, it's a company that, that makes energy here in, uh, in Canada. Um, and, uh, I thought, well, in all the different power stations, uh, where they make energy and they have this culture of like nuclear safety and so on.

And I thought, well, wouldn't it be great if we have something like this? But, um, for our, um. For, for mental health, and more specifically, if we find ourselves in a, in a situation where we need kind of like a, a first Aid mental health or a mental health first aid, uh, like a station. Um, you know, like imagine like the, the eye cleaning station, uh, that you have like a, uh, a Home Depot store, a hardware store or something like that, if something gets spilled or, um, or the, the fire extinguisher that you can reach to.

Um, but basically, um, using that as a, uh, as a way to bridge this gap, um, between people that are neurodiverse and neurotypical. Um, now obviously, uh, there's a, there's a, there's a spectrum there and, um, we don't necessarily need to identify ourselves as who's, who's who, in fact, uh, that's, um, often discouraged, but whoever, you know, we know ourselves and we do when we do have the need for, um.

When we do have the need for, for a mental health first aid, then, then, uh, it could be in our, in our pockets as a, as an app on our phone, for instance. I did do a quick search on this and I couldn't find a whole lot, uh, about that. But, um, we have this power of AI now that could be this algorithm that could be sort of massaged or set up in a way that, that could perhaps, um, help us with that.

Um, um, I did list a few different roles and audiences that could be involved. Um. There is existing EAP apps and EAP and, and all that, which is employee assistance, but they kind of point to like other places. So they're more of a, a hub, whereas I'm, I'm thinking of perhaps something that will be, they'll have like a one-stop shop, all the tools you need.

Um, and, uh, my, the work that inspires me, um, of, of that is, uh, something that I came across when I worked in the nonprofit sector, uh, as an instructional designer, um, which is the national standard, uh, of Canada on the psychological head and safety. It has 13 factors, uh, which are kind of like listed here.

Um, these 13 factors are on, uh, specific things like organizational culture, um, and, uh, ator respect, workload management and things like that. So this, obviously not all of these will apply to the case that I'm, that I'm trying to, uh, work through here, but. Some examples of situations that we come across that this could really be helpful is, uh, perhaps conflict resolutions within between coworkers or, uh, coworkers and managers or, uh, difficult conversations that we have at the workplace.

Um, and, um, there is, I think there is a strong communication gap between people that are neuro diverse and neurotypical so often. Uh, we don't know what kind of approach to use or how to express ourselves, and particularly in, in corporate culture. Um, this is quite prevalent. Um, so I try to put together a, a sort of a, a problem statement.

I'm not sure how well I landed with this. Um, um, so I, I try to focus on, um, a particular set of stakeholders. Um. In this case also a particular set of problems that, um, we come across. I'm not gonna read the whole thing. You can take a look if you like for yourself. Uh, but my goal is to, um, focus on, uh, a kind of adjust in time approach.

And I'm, I'm taking inspiration from my, my practice as, uh, an instructional designer. Um, I like more of a, a, a pull, um, strategy as opposed to a push strategy. So instead of pushing resources onto the user and telling them, here, look, you know, take this or take that, um, it's more like, well, I need something right now.

I need, I, I think I know what I need and this is how I can, I can get it. So that's, um, I, I don't know what the, the actual solution could be to this. Uh, but it is an idea that I've, that's been stuck in my mind and that I've, I've wanted to action on and as a side project to, to see how far I can get it.

I'm sure that there's, there's, um, different solutions out there that are sort of. Um, a combination of that kind of solve this problem. But, um, this is, um, I'd like to find something that's gonna be more unified. So that's my idea. That's, uh, my side project.

Awesome. Thanks. Thanks, Dan. Um, Mateusz? Yeah, thanks for the presentation and I think it's a really worthwhile, uh, cause and a difficult problem to solve. I had, uh, one, one reference that, uh, came to my mind was, uh, like the researcher, uh, chip Chase Jan. Chip Chase. I think Julian might know him. Right. Uh, told me about, not told me, told about a project he did at Nokia, which was, uh.

Nokia wanted to sell a cheap phone for, uh, I forget if it was, if it was India or if it was a region in Africa, right? So they wanted to do something that was cheap, where literacy was low. Uh, so how can we make a phone to allow SMS communication and phone communication for people who might not be literate as well as perhaps email or WAP access or whatever.

And what they found was that when they did market, like when they did research for you, potential users, uh, people didn't want to have a phone which looked branded as if it was branded towards people who couldn't read. So they were, they would actually prefer a phone, that phone that they couldn't use properly than one that would show everyone that they were illiterate.

And, uh, I'm thinking this as a reference. If, if this solution you come up with. Um, somehow that you, that it carries a social stigma, right? Because today we might not have functional ways to deal with in the workplace to deal with neuro neurodivergence and so on, but the, uh, but the onus of fixing it is on management and better people skills and awareness building and all these things.

But if you relegated into a technical solution, then becomes, okay, we, we can't really talk to that guy. Well just take the gizmo and do everything through that. And then it becomes what initially was supposed to be a tool for helping and bridging these gaps and com and understanding becomes, well, okay, we have a technical solution now I don't have any personal responsibility towards, uh, learning about the other person.

I just go, go through this gizmo or webpage or whatever tool you have, right? So this is not an answer to your question. I was just, uh. Came to think about how, how can you do it in a way which doesn't absolve people of responsibility, the responsibility of being, you know, inclusive and, and minding, um, and the people's, uh, different approaches.

Thank you. Thank you for that. Um, I guess Sandra,

hi Stan. Thanks for showing this. I, I like the original story of, uh, if I heard you correctly, that, um, you got the idea from how a nuclear plant. Essentially has a bunch of risk mechanisms to detect excessive heat, right? That's, that's what it all comes down to. And um, I could see that kind of metaphor carrying over into the workplace where I've seen attempts at mental health help beyond, you know, human interaction, but, uh, have rooms where people could go.

There were rooms that were dedicated with, you know, were quiet and, uh, you could lie down. Um, and so on and so forth, and various other ideas. And the difficulty always is to get people to use them, right? And, and, uh, you know, how do you know that you're actually in trouble? And, and, uh, that's, that's, um, if, if, if that could be surfaced in some way, if there was a way to take the kind of a heat map of the, uh, what would you call this emotional state or, or something like that in a meeting, in an interaction by observing a person's output, the language they use, uh, the, the, the amount of output, the quality of their outputs.

Uh, I hate to be all corporate about it, but I just think that way. But measurement, um. Then from that, be able to nudge people into doing something themselves, because that's the only way this would work. Um, where they would kind of check in with, with their buddy and, and ask like, like a friend, like, how, how do you think I'm doing?

And, or something like that. Um, that, that seems interesting to me. I I may have completely misunderstood what you're going for, but, uh, understanding, uh, psychological difficulty in the workplace is, is, is, is difficult enough. And then getting people to actually act on it is the other difficult part. And so, um, yeah, this kind of, this, this idea sort of embryonic enough that I think maybe, uh, there could be new, new ideas attached to it in terms of, um, you know, how this actually rolls, uh.

Enter someone's life and becomes part of their health, uh, without a sense of being obligated to do something or feeling imposed upon, um, or just kind of, uh, fake ritualize, you know, every, every week you get three hours off or something, but you may not need that three hours. Then in that week you may need six hours next week in the middle.

Right? So when, when to actually help people, uh, release, I guess the heat. Um, that's, that's, those are my thoughts. Yeah. Thank you for that. That's, um, funny enough, I did have a, a similar kind of conversation with, uh, a manager once about that. Yeah. That, that does go along with, with the lines of thinking that I have.

Thank you. Uh, Karis, is it, I'm not sure I'm pronouncing the name correctly. Uh, it's Paris. Um, well, you can pronounce it however you want. There is a different pronunciation for each language. Um, it, I don't have a specific, well, I'll say thank you because this is needed. Um, I basically, that was one of the reason I lost my previous job, like my previous employer basically tell me that, told me that if I'm neurodivergent and I can change my brain, then we can work together.

So it's very, very needed. Um, what, I have three things that that come to mind that's not really focused, but just for your inspiration. Um, there, there is, uh, a podcast, uh, that's called The Anxious Achiever. I don't know if you've heard about that. And there are lots of episodes about, um, how to, like, how to be, how to work as a neuro divergent.

So you would have. Some experts on the podcast that maybe you could be inspired by, uh, in your work. Uh, another thing I'm thinking about, you talk about first aid, uh, mental Health First Aid. Um, I don't know if that's something you came up with or if you've already heard about it, because recently I've heard about, again, a French, I'm sorry, all my resources, almost all my resources are going to be French.

There is a French, um, uh, healthcare worker who, who has kind of developed this concept and is working on it. So I don't know if you heard about it, so, but I can share, um, a link. Uh, maybe you can investigate what is already done. And the third thing is another French resource. I don't know, um, if you heard of, I think her name is fan bound and she kind of popularized the.

The, the concept of, uh, high potential in, in the Francophone word. And she had, she had written, uh, like a book to help people understand themselves and help people understand neurodivergent people. And then she came to the conclusion that people don't wanna do that. And I totally agree with her. People don't want to be, um, like, they don't want their habits to be disturbed.

Uh, so she wrote a second book to help neuro diversion people understand neuro atypical people. And that's called, uh, I've started reading it, haven't finished because I'm studying a lot of things that I don't finish. Uh, but it was very eye-opening, uh, and it just basically gave the. The, like, the rules to live, uh, in this, like amongst the majority of people.

Um, and so I, what I'm trying to say with this is that I believe it's gonna be, I, I don't, I'm not really hopeful that like most people will try to do the work, uh, to communicate with people who are different. Um, but we can have like a self, not a self depend, but like we can auto medicate if I can say, uh, maybe trying to find a tool that helps us mostly to auto meditate.

And if people want to like to have this conversation, they can get it. But it's primarily, primarily, uh, aimed at neurodivergent people. Like that being said, I'm not saying I'm neurodivergent. I don't know, I haven't been diagnosed or anything, just some people think I am. But just being a weird person to a lot of people, that's, that's my experience.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. Lots of videos there. Thanks. Um, Scott got

Hey. Yeah, tha just building on what some people have said. Um, I thi my dad was, uh, worked at the Chalk River nuclear plant a bazillion years ago. I don't know if he was neuro, neuro, well, he was to some degree, but, um, and he would've loved this project. Um, I think so much of it is like how it's introduced.

I really loved, uh, Mateo's kind of me metaphorical example. Is, I don't know. That to me it's like a framing challenge. How is this in people's lives? I don't, and another random metaphorical project would be like, do you know this art project called Conflict Kitchen? Which is a kind of a popup restaurant that serves different cuisine within a country that, and the cuisine that's serving is the country the other that they're in conflict with.

So it's just a way to like frame a conversation about that enemy. So I'm just thinking are there, to me the cha, there's a lot of the science part, but it seems like, I don't, I don't know your role in this, but maybe a lot of interesting and rich exploration will be how this has even situated or introduced or like becomes part of habit.

So thanks for sharing. Yeah, thank you so much. That's a, that's a great point to think about. Appreciate that, mark.

Hey. Yeah, so this might be of interest to you and I'm happy to talk about it separately. We're currently working on a project that is dealing with kids that's focused on detecting, um, strengths and weaknesses in executive function. So essentially a set of like 16 bits of executive function. I don't know how well it'll translate.

And one of the things is also we are in a scenario where we have transcripts and what we can do with those transcripts is actually extract, um, using ai, the kind of strengths and weaknesses and identifying where they are, and also progression over time. So I'm not sure if that's something that's interesting to you, but there might be translation.

Um, although we are specifically not, uh, diagnosing anything. We're simply looking for patterns and then bringing up educational 'cause I'm also, I also work in education quite a bit, and so we're bringing up educational resources that, um, work on filling gaps or accelerating strengths, that kind of thing.

Um, so I, in a past life, um, I worked in a, for a company that was going, that was work, the, the work in education. Um, and they provided, uh, accessibility services based on, um, uh, basically, uh, kind of indi individualized, uh, educational plans for, for kids that, that, that have had those kinds of, uh, or diagnosis already done.

Mm-hmm. Um, and this particular company was providing kind of learning strategies and different tools in their toolkit to be able to tackle the, their workload. And without going into too much detail about this, um, this sort of. So mental health, accessibility, this, um, in education, this sphere has been very much an interest of mine and, and something that it's been, um, a lot more than a passion project and I've been wanting to pursue that.

So I'd love to connect, um, outside this. Okay. Yeah, find me LinkedIn. Probably the best way to find me and, okay. Sounds good. Thank you. Alright.

Um, I'm not sure if anybody else has anything else to say. Um, I'm guessing we're almost out of time. Uh, a couple of minutes left, but, um, yeah, I would, I would guess, um, I sort of, you know, think of these things, so, you know, it's amazing. And, and again, just to kind of underscore what other people said, like, uh, this would be remarkable even just to do the project, run it through, you know, just to, to, um, understand I guess maybe the sort of context you're working on, uh, more thoroughly.

I start, I start thinking about like, what would I start thinking about this thing in the world? So what would this, how would you, what would be the, I'm not saying there's a direction you going in and, and I don't wanna overindex on where you might be imagining this, what this becomes, but it's like, if there were like a brochure for this, like a, like a trifold brochure, what might it be saying?

You know, that's, if this was, if this was something that we're gonna be, let's say part of a health maintenance program that you get at work and it's like, here's all the literature for the health plan. Here's dentists, you know, uh, all the specialists we offer, and if this were something that were as normal as, you know, anything else that you might expect from.

A health benefit plan or, you know, not even health benefit if it were just, if this were a service that were offered at a, at a, at a bodega, you're on the corner. If it was just kind of in the world and it was accepted in normal, a bus, you know, the thing that you see on the side of a tram, big advertisement for something, or a public service announcement.

That's just where my head starts going in terms of trying to make sense of what it might be like to have in the world. So, you know, I'm totally down with it. I think it's a great idea to explore it and kind of go into it. And then also, you know, at the same time, how do you augment the description of what you're trying to work on for people who are maybe, um, I don't get what you're talking about, or what do you mean?

Can you gimme some examples? And you could give them examples or you could also give them the brochure that you mocked up, you know, maybe with as much as much, you know, sort of like what, um, could even be like, you know, what Matta did for his presentation, just, you know, an hour ago. Um, you know, trying to flip the problem around.

I'm not saying that that's necessarily the whole, all the work that you do, but just as another way of kind of getting into this, so you, you know, you present it, you've got, you've got a few slides here and this is great. This is kind of gets us into it if you were just to try adding a little bit more resolution to that visual or feeling or understanding, uh, just as a, as an additional angle into the project.

I'm not saying anything's wrong with what you presented. I just started imagining I want that brochure. Like what would that be like? Yeah. Yeah. I, I want to, so, uh, one of the things that I, that I'm working on is I'm, I'm always trying to add new pieces to my portfolio, and I, there's, there's so much in here that I can, I would like to unpack.

Um, one of the things that I did do is, um, in a, in a, for one of the nonprofit companies that I work for, is I actually built a training framework on these 13 factors. And I used something called, um, uh, action mapping. Um, and I, it, it's, it goes a little bit beyond action mapping. It's more like content mapping.

So I was mapping what kind of training would, would be, um, uh, would be appropriate for, uh, in a workplace, uh, for these 13 factors based on the actions that. They would presuppose and on in different roles and all that. It ended up being this huge matrix. Uh, I was working with this, this other person, she was, uh, my researcher, so she was pulling all the resources that would be, um, really good for that.

And, uh, unfortunately that matrix that we created her and I, um, is, is property of that company. So we, we couldn't really take that with us. But the, uh, just the act of, of doing that, it, um, it, it created this massive, um, system, um, and, and sort of a, um, if you will, a mental model in a way that, um, we didn't really expect.

It just grew. Um, and, uh, we realized there's so much more there. Um, other than just, I mean, I've picked a small little nugget there on, on bridging that communication. It's so vague, um, still, and, uh, the idea of a, of a sort of a, a first aid station, um, came because of the immediacy that the, the, the kind of like feelings that, that you have, um, whether, whether or not you're, you're neurodiverse or, or you have, like, you're pushed by different feelings, like, oh, oh my God, like I'm, I'm gonna have this fight or flight sort of instinct.

Um, yeah. Sorry, mark. Yeah. Just based on what Julian was saying, I was just thinking about an object, which is, because I'm just looking at your problem statement. What kind of object would in real time, kind of measure the gap, right? Like, what might that look like? Mm-hmm. You know, so you got this problem, so you have this thing that's sitting in between as you're talking to somebody else.

It's somehow there's some kind of meter that says the gap between you is growing greater or that, you know, like something that in real time it has a kind of like a fictional object, right? That helps kind of describe what's happening. I don't know, it's just something that popped up that I think is an interesting kind of real time meter or measurement.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. Good stuff. Um, the other, the other thing that just came to my mind, uh, quickly before we finish is, um, the, I've, I've done this, I did this in a workshop, uh, a few weeks ago where in order to help people kind of wrap their heads around their discussion is I had them write in one form or another, like the, this little corner of the world that they imagine that, um, this is a very kind of early, you know, 1 0 1 kind of, uh, workshop with people who maybe.

Not used to workshopping or whatever. And then I had them shove their notes and their thoughts. You know, they write a few paragraphs into Notebook LM and have it generate, you know, does the podcast generation thing have it, generate a podcast? And then not only that, they had to imagine that this was a podcast from the future that they were imagining.

So they had to instruct, you know, the AI to be like, no, no, no. Don't write about this stuff. Write as if this, the, this is part of the world. You know, just like a, like a, like a news report might, or podcast talking about contemporary issues might, that's an, I think it's another, that's another, I found it very useful and very quick.

It's not, you know, the work's not done, but it's just like, okay, now I can get, you know, an AI to talk about my world as if it's talking about the world and not just responding to me. If you follow what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I did, I did something similar with careers 'cause I'm on a bit of a career journey right now.

Um, I would like to reimagine myself as something other than an instructional designer, even though that's quite multifaceted already. I did something, some, something similar where I basically got the eye to, to come up with these personas, these stories of, of different people that are, that have, uh, a DHD and a SD kind of a, a mixture of the two.

And, uh, it was, it was really cool. Uh, but I've never thought of the notebook, lm. Um, to, to use that as a, as a tool. And then it's, it's, so, um, that's, that's a really cool idea. Really. Thank you for this. I appreciate it. I, I do not expect, quite frankly, to be, to be with, with, with so much positive positivity and so much, so many great ideas.

Um, I've, uh, been kind of beating myself up over, over this idea thinking like, oh, nobody cares about it. And, uh, um, you know, it's a problem that somebody else has solved already sort of thing. But this is, this is fantastic. I, I also wanna say that, uh, as a first timer, I, I will definitely come back. This is a fantastic group.

Um, and, uh, I, I did hear earlier something about a discord, so I'd like to, um, I would like to hang around there as well, if that's possible. Thank you. Yeah. Uh, just, um, send me, I, I'll, I'll figure out a better way to, to share link, but just send me an email. Um. And, uh, I'll send you, I'll send you an invite to it.

The whole Discord invite thing is, is it's uh, it's fine. We'll get you in. Right. It's just like, it's like, uh, rewiring a, a turn of the century house to get modern electricity going real, real pain. But, um, we'll sort that out. No problem. Yeah, sure thing. Cool. Appreciate everyone. That was super fun. Good. Good.

Good Sesh. Good ses. Very cool. Yeah. Thanks for hosting Jillian. Sure thing, man. Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, thanks for the, all the work. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for showing. So, uh, yeah, everyone enjoy the weekend and um, we'll see you next time. See you next time. Bye guys. Bye. Bye. Bye.